Posted by Michael Bell on July 15, 2010, 2:56 pm
In message <53ef62d0-2bc2-4215-be39-332cb3b286fe@u26g2000yqu.googlegro
ups.com>
>> I have concieved the truly wild idea of developing alder into a grain
>> crop. If you look at the cones on some alder trees and imagine them as
>>
>> ears of wheat, you can see it would be a good crop. And alder fixes
>> nitrogen and grows on the uplands. The uplands are 40% of the land
>> area of this country, which cannot feed itself. I can send fuller
>> details to anybody interested.
>>
>> But cones of alder are not ears of wheat, the seeds are far too small.
>>
>> My plan is to breed for bigger seeds by traditional plant breeding
>> methods and the starting point for that is seeds from
>> naturally-occurring alders.
>>
>> My plan is to pull the cones off the branches with an ordinary garden
>> rake with a bag attached. The tree will hardly be harmed. I have made
>> a hand-held roller/crusher for getting the seeds out of the cones -
>> the seeds are fully formed and viable long before the cones open. I
>> have bought a series of sieves which will let the normal seeds through
>> but will hold back the 1 bigger seed in 10 000? normal sized seeds. I
>> only need a few for the project to be a "goer". Will I find those few?
>>
>> There is no way of knowing beforehand.
>>
>> This coming autumn I plan to go round alder woods and try to find the
>> seeds I want, and I wonder if you can advise me where I might find
>> interesting trees. For example bigger cones - is it too simple to
>> think that they might have bigger seeds? Or a tree which fruits young.
>>
>> It is my theory that I might find interesting trees where exotic
>> alders have interbred with local strains. But I might be wrong in
>> that.
>>
>> Do you know of good sites? What is the likely position as regards
>> permissions? With the exception of a stately home garden where I asked
>> permission and it was freely given, around Newcastle I have just gone
>> and taken what I wanted. Nobody ever asked what I was doing, and I am
>> sure that if they had they would not have objected. Formal asking
>> would surely involve weeks of delay and create mountains of paperwork.
>>
>> Going around the country seeking those precious few seeds might seem
>> "hard work", but it could also be a pleasant way of getting to know
>> the country.
>>
>> Any feedback would be welcome.
>>
>> Michael Bell
>>
>> --
> You need to realise that most advances in the past were as a result
> of one on a million sports or freaks that someone happened to spot
> and nurture. These are thought to have occurred due to natural
> radiation causing genetic errors in the DNA of the plant. Or Darwinian
> evolution.
> A lot of horticulural research starts by irradiating seed & then
> planting. They get millions of useless stuff & then maybe one useful
> plant. If they're lucky.
I am going to go round natural plantations, especially where they have
hybridised with foreign strains, there is a lot of that on Tyneside
where imported alders have been planted on old slag heaps. I am going
sieve alder seeds, I might get through several million (it will be
interesting to make even a rough count!) in a season and I only need
to get a few. It is lucky that I am seeking such a simple trait which
can be so easily sorted for mechanically. It would be impossible to
search through such numbers for a chemical trait. It IS a matter of
luck whether I find anything.
Michael Bell
--
Posted by Stewart Robert Hinsley on July 15, 2010, 3:39 pm
>In message <53ef62d0-2bc2-4215-be39-332cb3b286fe@u26g2000yqu.googlegro
>ups.com>
>>> I have concieved the truly wild idea of developing alder into a grain
>>> crop. If you look at the cones on some alder trees and imagine them as
>>>
>>> ears of wheat, you can see it would be a good crop. And alder fixes
>>> nitrogen and grows on the uplands. The uplands are 40% of the land
>>> area of this country, which cannot feed itself. I can send fuller
>>> details to anybody interested.
>>>
>>> But cones of alder are not ears of wheat, the seeds are far too small.
>>>
>>> My plan is to breed for bigger seeds by traditional plant breeding
>>> methods and the starting point for that is seeds from
>>> naturally-occurring alders.
>>>
>>> My plan is to pull the cones off the branches with an ordinary garden
>>> rake with a bag attached. The tree will hardly be harmed. I have made
>>> a hand-held roller/crusher for getting the seeds out of the cones -
>>> the seeds are fully formed and viable long before the cones open. I
>>> have bought a series of sieves which will let the normal seeds through
>>> but will hold back the 1 bigger seed in 10 000? normal sized seeds. I
>>> only need a few for the project to be a "goer". Will I find those few?
>>>
>>> There is no way of knowing beforehand.
>>>
>>> This coming autumn I plan to go round alder woods and try to find the
>>> seeds I want, and I wonder if you can advise me where I might find
>>> interesting trees. For example bigger cones - is it too simple to
>>> think that they might have bigger seeds? Or a tree which fruits young.
>>>
>>> It is my theory that I might find interesting trees where exotic
>>> alders have interbred with local strains. But I might be wrong in
>>> that.
>>>
>>> Do you know of good sites? What is the likely position as regards
>>> permissions? With the exception of a stately home garden where I asked
>>> permission and it was freely given, around Newcastle I have just gone
>>> and taken what I wanted. Nobody ever asked what I was doing, and I am
>>> sure that if they had they would not have objected. Formal asking
>>> would surely involve weeks of delay and create mountains of paperwork.
>>>
>>> Going around the country seeking those precious few seeds might seem
>>> "hard work", but it could also be a pleasant way of getting to know
>>> the country.
>>>
>>> Any feedback would be welcome.
>>>
>>> Michael Bell
>>>
>>> --
>> You need to realise that most advances in the past were as a result
>> of one on a million sports or freaks that someone happened to spot
>> and nurture. These are thought to have occurred due to natural
>> radiation causing genetic errors in the DNA of the plant. Or Darwinian
>> evolution.
>> A lot of horticulural research starts by irradiating seed & then
>> planting. They get millions of useless stuff & then maybe one useful
>> plant. If they're lucky.
>I am going to go round natural plantations, especially where they have
>hybridised with foreign strains, there is a lot of that on Tyneside
>where imported alders have been planted on old slag heaps. I am going
>sieve alder seeds, I might get through several million (it will be
>interesting to make even a rough count!) in a season and I only need
>to get a few. It is lucky that I am seeking such a simple trait which
>can be so easily sorted for mechanically. It would be impossible to
>search through such numbers for a chemical trait. It IS a matter of
>luck whether I find anything.
A question may want to ask is whether the seed size is controlled by the
maternal genotype (and environmental influences) or the embryo genotype.
If the former then you should be looking for the trees with the largest
average seed size, rather than the largest seeds independent of source.
But your sieving process should preferentially select seeds from trees
producing a higher average size of seed, so this may not matter. You
still have to worry that the higher average size of seed is caused by
the environment and not by the genotype.
>Michael Bell
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Posted by Mike Lyle on July 15, 2010, 4:17 pm
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
[...]
> A question may want to ask is whether the seed size is controlled by
> the maternal genotype (and environmental influences) or the embryo
> genotype. If the former then you should be looking for the trees with
> the largest average seed size, rather than the largest seeds
> independent of source.
> But your sieving process should preferentially select seeds from trees
> producing a higher average size of seed, so this may not matter. You
> still have to worry that the higher average size of seed is caused by
> the environment and not by the genotype.
A very interesting project, though perhaps in danger of being overtaken
by genetic modification. Two further questions occur to me. One is, are
you selecting not only for seed size, but also for practical harvesting
characteristics? We need our grain crops, whether cereal, pulse, or
whatever, to stay on the plant when ripe, rather than scattering. The
other is, does alder seed /taste/ all right?
--
Mike.
Posted by Michael Bell on July 16, 2010, 4:22 am
> Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
> [...]
>>
>> A question may want to ask is whether the seed size is controlled by
>> the maternal genotype (and environmental influences) or the embryo
>> genotype. If the former then you should be looking for the trees with
>> the largest average seed size, rather than the largest seeds
>> independent of source.
>> But your sieving process should preferentially select seeds from trees
>> producing a higher average size of seed, so this may not matter. You
>> still have to worry that the higher average size of seed is caused by
>> the environment and not by the genotype.
On a search like this, I cannot take such factors into account. I am
looking for "the biggest" no matter how it came to be the biggest. It
came to be big in field conditions and that is enough for me. Really,
I am looking for a "freak", well outside the usual bell-shaped curve,
and searching through such numbers, I have a fair chance of finding
one.
> A very interesting project, though perhaps in danger of being overtaken
> by genetic modification. Two further questions occur to me. One is, are
> you selecting not only for seed size, but also for practical harvesting
> characteristics? We need our grain crops, whether cereal, pulse, or
> whatever, to stay on the plant when ripe, rather than scattering. The
> other is, does alder seed /taste/ all right?
Uncooked, it tastes of nothing in particular. I think the same is true
of wheat and rice.
I am satisfied that mechanised harvesting is in reach - in fact it is
the least of the problems.
Michael Bell
--
Posted by kay on July 16, 2010, 6:07 am
Michael Bell;894053 Wrote:
>
> My plan is to breed for bigger seeds by traditional plant breeding
> methods and the starting point for that is seeds from
> naturally-occurring alders.
>
> --
How many years does an alder take from seed to bearing cones?
--
kay
XML site map
>> crop. If you look at the cones on some alder trees and imagine them as
>>
>> ears of wheat, you can see it would be a good crop. And alder fixes
>> nitrogen and grows on the uplands. The uplands are 40% of the land
>> area of this country, which cannot feed itself. I can send fuller
>> details to anybody interested.
>>
>> But cones of alder are not ears of wheat, the seeds are far too small.
>>
>> My plan is to breed for bigger seeds by traditional plant breeding
>> methods and the starting point for that is seeds from
>> naturally-occurring alders.
>>
>> My plan is to pull the cones off the branches with an ordinary garden
>> rake with a bag attached. The tree will hardly be harmed. I have made
>> a hand-held roller/crusher for getting the seeds out of the cones -
>> the seeds are fully formed and viable long before the cones open. I
>> have bought a series of sieves which will let the normal seeds through
>> but will hold back the 1 bigger seed in 10 000? normal sized seeds. I
>> only need a few for the project to be a "goer". Will I find those few?
>>
>> There is no way of knowing beforehand.
>>
>> This coming autumn I plan to go round alder woods and try to find the
>> seeds I want, and I wonder if you can advise me where I might find
>> interesting trees. For example bigger cones - is it too simple to
>> think that they might have bigger seeds? Or a tree which fruits young.
>>
>> It is my theory that I might find interesting trees where exotic
>> alders have interbred with local strains. But I might be wrong in
>> that.
>>
>> Do you know of good sites? What is the likely position as regards
>> permissions? With the exception of a stately home garden where I asked
>> permission and it was freely given, around Newcastle I have just gone
>> and taken what I wanted. Nobody ever asked what I was doing, and I am
>> sure that if they had they would not have objected. Formal asking
>> would surely involve weeks of delay and create mountains of paperwork.
>>
>> Going around the country seeking those precious few seeds might seem
>> "hard work", but it could also be a pleasant way of getting to know
>> the country.
>>
>> Any feedback would be welcome.
>>
>> Michael Bell
>>
>> --
> You need to realise that most advances in the past were as a result
> of one on a million sports or freaks that someone happened to spot
> and nurture. These are thought to have occurred due to natural
> radiation causing genetic errors in the DNA of the plant. Or Darwinian
> evolution.
> A lot of horticulural research starts by irradiating seed & then
> planting. They get millions of useless stuff & then maybe one useful
> plant. If they're lucky.