Posted by Ted Shoemaker on March 10, 2011, 9:23 pm
Hello,
The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. The stuff
I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.
How?
Okay. I'm far from an expert. Let's start at the beginning.
If I add something like dolomite (for calcium), I'm told that will
kill microinvertebrates and make the lawn dependent on chemical
fertilizers indefinitely. I don't want that!
So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
don't want to re-plant the lawn.
Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.
What do you suggest?
Thank you.
Ted Shoemaker
Posted by David Hare-Scott on March 11, 2011, 12:41 am
Ted Shoemaker wrote:
> Hello,
> The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. The stuff
> I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.
How do you know this?
> How?
> Okay. I'm far from an expert. Let's start at the beginning.
> If I add something like dolomite (for calcium), I'm told that will
> kill microinvertebrates and make the lawn dependent on chemical
> fertilizers indefinitely. I don't want that!
Firstly don't add dolomite to improve just calcium, it contains calcium and
magnesium which need to be kept in balance. Generally dolomite is used
where both calcium and magnesium are required and to change the balance
towards magnesium. Instead add garden lime (calcium carbonate) if you want
to raise the pH or gypsum (calcium sulphate) if you don't want to change the
pH. All these are natural minerals which have been used by gardeners for
centuries.
Secondly the microflora will not be killed by adding any of these is
sensible quantities. Yes you could cause damage by changing the pH very
quickly by adding something like builder's lime (calcium hydroxide) but you
don't want to do that. Adding reasonable amounts of dolomite or garden lime
will not make your lawn dependent on chemicals. I don't know where this
idea of dependency comes from.
Nitrogen can be added in many ways, I prefer bird manure (pelletised chicken
manure is commonly available) but synthetic fertilisers will do the job
without causing the last trumpet to sound. Be warned that synthetics are
more concentrated and so can be over done easily and nitrogen compounds
leach out quickly if the soil structure is poor. This will waste your money
and pollute the nearby waterways.
> So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
> form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
> compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
> don't want to re-plant the lawn.
Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not increase
calcium very much if at all.
> Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.
> What do you suggest?
> Thank you.
Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If not do
so before you act.
David
Posted by songbird on March 14, 2011, 8:48 pm
David Hare-Scott wrote:
> Ted Shoemaker wrote:
...
>> So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in compost
>> form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of of
>> compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it. I
>> don't want to re-plant the lawn.
>>
> Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not increase
> calcium very much if at all.
if you add enough to improve the habitat for
worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
do secrete calcium.
also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
disappear when compost is made (or if it does
where does it go?).
just be careful as adding too much compost all
at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
if you smother the grass).
>> Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.
>>
>> What do you suggest?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
> Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If not do
> so before you act.
agreed.
but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
existing conditions. leave the amendments and
compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
expensive, etc.).
songbird
Posted by David Hare-Scott on March 14, 2011, 11:47 pm
songbird wrote:
> David Hare-Scott wrote:
>> Ted Shoemaker wrote:
> ...
>>> So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in
>>> compost form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of
>>> of compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it.
>>> I don't want to re-plant the lawn.
>>>
>>
>> Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not
>> increase calcium very much if at all.
> if you add enough to improve the habitat for
> worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
> do secrete calcium.
The worms will just recycle the calcium already in the environment so this
would have no net effect.
> also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
> disappear when compost is made (or if it does
> where does it go?).
All plants have calcium (but not much) and it doesn't go away when they die
or are composted (unlike nitrogen). However this is a very inefficient way
to add calcium to your soil, especially if the compost came from your
calcium depleted soil in the first place.
> just be careful as adding too much compost all
> at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
> if you smother the grass).
>>> Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.
>>>
>>> What do you suggest?
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>
>> Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If
>> not do so before you act.
> agreed.
> but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
> or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
> existing conditions. leave the amendments and
> compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
> to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
> expensive, etc.).
> songbird
This is an option but if liming is suitable in the situation it is not
difficult nor particularly expensive.
David
Posted by songbird on March 16, 2011, 9:43 pm
David Hare-Scott wrote:
> songbird wrote:
>> David Hare-Scott wrote:
>>> Ted Shoemaker wrote:
>> ...
>>>> So let's add compost. But, in order to add enough calcium in
>>>> compost form, I'd have to add several inches (in vertical depth) of
>>>> of compost. That would smother the lawn. Nope. Not gonna do it.
>>>> I don't want to re-plant the lawn.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Compost is good for depleted soil for many reasons but it will not
>>> increase calcium very much if at all.
>>
>> if you add enough to improve the habitat for
>> worms they will increase calcium levels. worms
>> do secrete calcium.
>>
> The worms will just recycle the calcium already in the environment so this
> would have no net effect.
no net effect if you are looking at it
from a physical/chemical component level.
i think that differs if you look at it
from a nutrient tied up in certain forms
level and how the worms actually ingest
and alter the soil they ingest.
if a worm ingests a calciferous fragment
they will grind it in their gizzard along
with everything else they ingest. add to
that secreted calcium. i think all of
these things would increase available
calcium in the soil (which is what is more
important to plants than calcium levels
tied up in forms that aren't very
accessible).
wish i had a lab set up for this sort
of thing as i think the experiments would
be interesting in and of themselves.
>> also many plants do have calcium, that doesn't
>> disappear when compost is made (or if it does
>> where does it go?).
>>
> All plants have calcium (but not much) and it doesn't go away when they die
> or are composted (unlike nitrogen). However this is a very inefficient way
> to add calcium to your soil, especially if the compost came from your
> calcium depleted soil in the first place.
i suspect the original poster is talking
about adding additional compost from another
source.
>> just be careful as adding too much compost all
>> at once will likely encourage fungal diseases (
>> if you smother the grass).
>>
>>
>>>> Obviously I can't believe everything I hear or read.
>>>>
>>>> What do you suggest?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ted where did you get this information? Have you tested the pH? If
>>> not do so before you act.
>>
>> agreed.
>>
>> but really, it makes more sense to plant grasses
>> or add other plants to the mix that will tolerate
>> existing conditions. leave the amendments and
>> compost for the garden beds that you want to alter
>> to fit specific crops (much smaller areas, less
>> expensive, etc.).
> This is an option but if liming is suitable in the situation it is not
> difficult nor particularly expensive.
also true, but i'm not a big fan of encouraging
lawns to grow even more so they need to be mowed
more often, etc.
songbird
> The soil in our yard appears to need nitrogen and calcium. The stuff
> I've read, and the advice I've been told, says to add soil amendments.