> Bill who putters wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:36:25 -0700, Suzanne D. wrote: > >> > >>>> I'm thinking about getting a greenhouse this year to extend my season > >>>> (I live in Massachusetts). Last fall someone on this group suggested I > >>>> try a popup greenhouse because they are very cheap (under $150, some as > >>>> low as $50), rather then make any kind of major investment. Does any > >>>> one have any experience with them? > >>> > >>> I bought a $110 plastic greenhouse from Walmart. It was easy to > >>> assemble. The workmanship was a little shoddy, but nothing drastic--just > >>> a zipper off-kilter, some crooked seams, that sort of thing. > >>> > >>> There were two problems I saw, and these might not be problems for you: > >>> > >>> 1. It didn't stay warm at night. I'd see seedlings popping up during > >>> the day (when it was VERY hot inside the greenhouse), then they'd die > >>> overnight. If you are going to put some nighttime heating in it, then > >>> this probably wouldn't be an issue for you. > >>> > >>> 2. The wind completely took it away. We staked it down all around AND > >>> put concrete cinderblocks around the perimeter of the greenhouse, but on > >>> one windy night the entire thing was pulled up from its stakes and blown > >>> into a tree, where it twisted and broke. The plastic was ripped, and > >>> the metal bars were bent and sheared clean off at some places. (A few > >>> of the stakes were still in the ground; the wind had separated the poles > >>> at the joints and lifted them away!) If you do not have a lot of wind > >>> where you live, this shouldn't be a problem. > >>> > >>> I really like the idea of these inexpensive greenhouses, but for me it > >>> was a waste of money. > >>> --S. > >> Thanks for your feedback. Both of those things are issues, I wondered how > >> something that was basically a tent could stand up to any kind of wind, > >> apparently they can't. > > > > Maybe nestled up to a south facing wall with east and west protected > > with a few cider blocks. > > > I like that idea. > > You may wish to look at home made hoop greenhouses. Easiest way is to > drive rebar into the ground, and pop the hoops on the exposed rebar. You > will need to recover every few years, but the material is cheap. > > One example: > > http://westsidegardener.com/howto/hoophouse.html > > My general advice, curves are strong and resist wind. If you can prop > this against a south facing wall you will cut your heating needs. > Greenhouses lose heat at night, and lots of it. Without added heat, > inside temperature will be the outside temp by morning if not long before.
I'd investigate composting manure for heating. Not very esthetic, but
practical.
> > > As I understand it auto venting device is > > really of import or the heat which varies a lot due to no solar mass > > fries or freezes your plants. I's add gallons of water maybe half your > > space to try to moderate the temperature swings. > > > Water is one BTU per pound water degree F. Heat loss for single layer is > ~ 1 BTU/hr per square foot times the temperature difference. It adds up > to a lot of water as Bill has said. Try Drums. Other materials store > heat, but not as well as water. > > Double or triple wall polycarbonate will cut the heat loss by almost a > half to two thirds.
and reduce light by 20% - 30%, respectivly. Six mil polyvinyl will
reduce light by 5 - 15%. In low light situations, this could be
important. I was planing on a hoop house, but decided that I couldn't
afford the light loss in my particular situation.
> > I'll retrofit my solar cabana with mylar storms this fall. Clear > mylar degrades in UV so it needs a UV outer barrier. > > I've been using vinyl shower curtain liners. They are very clear and > hold up well, so far. > > Jeff > > Small maybe beautiful > > but one has to work harder on your design. > >
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >> Bill who putters wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:36:25 -0700, Suzanne D. wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I'm thinking about getting a greenhouse this year to extend my season >>>>>> (I live in Massachusetts). Last fall someone on this group suggested I >>>>>> try a popup greenhouse because they are very cheap (under $150, some as >>>>>> low as $50), rather then make any kind of major investment. Does any >>>>>> one have any experience with them? >>>>> I bought a $110 plastic greenhouse from Walmart. It was easy to >>>>> assemble. The workmanship was a little shoddy, but nothing drastic--just >>>>> a zipper off-kilter, some crooked seams, that sort of thing. >>>>> >>>>> There were two problems I saw, and these might not be problems for you: >>>>> >>>>> 1. It didn't stay warm at night. I'd see seedlings popping up during >>>>> the day (when it was VERY hot inside the greenhouse), then they'd die >>>>> overnight. If you are going to put some nighttime heating in it, then >>>>> this probably wouldn't be an issue for you. >>>>> >>>>> 2. The wind completely took it away. We staked it down all around AND >>>>> put concrete cinderblocks around the perimeter of the greenhouse, but on >>>>> one windy night the entire thing was pulled up from its stakes and blown >>>>> into a tree, where it twisted and broke. The plastic was ripped, and >>>>> the metal bars were bent and sheared clean off at some places. (A few >>>>> of the stakes were still in the ground; the wind had separated the poles >>>>> at the joints and lifted them away!) If you do not have a lot of wind >>>>> where you live, this shouldn't be a problem. >>>>> >>>>> I really like the idea of these inexpensive greenhouses, but for me it >>>>> was a waste of money. >>>>> --S. >>>> Thanks for your feedback. Both of those things are issues, I wondered how >>>> something that was basically a tent could stand up to any kind of wind, >>>> apparently they can't. >>> Maybe nestled up to a south facing wall with east and west protected >>> with a few cider blocks. >> >> I like that idea. >> >> You may wish to look at home made hoop greenhouses. Easiest way is to >> drive rebar into the ground, and pop the hoops on the exposed rebar. You >> will need to recover every few years, but the material is cheap. >> >> One example: >> >> http://westsidegardener.com/howto/hoophouse.html >> >> My general advice, curves are strong and resist wind. If you can prop >> this against a south facing wall you will cut your heating needs. >> Greenhouses lose heat at night, and lots of it. Without added heat, >> inside temperature will be the outside temp by morning if not long before. > > I'd investigate composting manure for heating. Not very esthetic, but > practical.
Perhaps perhaps run pex through the remotely located compost pile and
pump the heat into the greenhouse when needed. Lot's of options.
>> >> As I understand it auto venting device is >>> really of import or the heat which varies a lot due to no solar mass >>> fries or freezes your plants. I's add gallons of water maybe half your >>> space to try to moderate the temperature swings. >> >> Water is one BTU per pound water degree F. Heat loss for single layer is >> ~ 1 BTU/hr per square foot times the temperature difference. It adds up >> to a lot of water as Bill has said. Try Drums. Other materials store >> heat, but not as well as water. >> >> Double or triple wall polycarbonate will cut the heat loss by almost a >> half to two thirds. > and reduce light by 20% - 30%, respectivly. Six mil polyvinyl will > reduce light by 5 - 15%. In low light situations, this could be > important. I was planing on a hoop house, but decided that I couldn't > afford the light loss in my particular situation.
It's always a tradeoff. You could have removable insulation and put it
in at night. But that can be a hassle. I've done some removable with
reflective bubble wrap such as this:
I also have this on the north wall and it reflects light in rather
than letting it escapes. It can also be pulled over the top, instead
of inside.
I've got some folding multilayer 1 mil mylar "storms" that has very
low light loss, but it has it's issues.
My benefit here is that while I have very little sun during the
summer, falling leaves changes all that. I may have to become a winter
gardener...
At any rate, there is a lot to consider. And I'm afraid more that the
casual greenhouse user would like to consider!
As you have said, anyone can grow in ideal conditions, it takes a
gardener to grow in what is available!
Jeff
>> I'll retrofit my solar cabana with mylar storms this fall. Clear >> mylar degrades in UV so it needs a UV outer barrier. >> >> I've been using vinyl shower curtain liners. They are very clear and >> hold up well, so far. >> >> Jeff >> >> Small maybe beautiful >>> but one has to work harder on your design. >>>
Posted by Billy on June 20, 2010, 2:58 pm
> Billy wrote: > > > >> Bill who putters wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:36:25 -0700, Suzanne D. wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> I'm thinking about getting a greenhouse this year to extend my season > >>>>>> (I live in Massachusetts). Last fall someone on this group suggested I > >>>>>> try a popup greenhouse because they are very cheap (under $150, some > >>>>>> as > >>>>>> low as $50), rather then make any kind of major investment. Does any > >>>>>> one have any experience with them? > >>>>> I bought a $110 plastic greenhouse from Walmart. It was easy to > >>>>> assemble. The workmanship was a little shoddy, but nothing > >>>>> drastic--just > >>>>> a zipper off-kilter, some crooked seams, that sort of thing. > >>>>> > >>>>> There were two problems I saw, and these might not be problems for you: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. It didn't stay warm at night. I'd see seedlings popping up during > >>>>> the day (when it was VERY hot inside the greenhouse), then they'd die > >>>>> overnight. If you are going to put some nighttime heating in it, then > >>>>> this probably wouldn't be an issue for you. > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. The wind completely took it away. We staked it down all around AND > >>>>> put concrete cinderblocks around the perimeter of the greenhouse, but > >>>>> on > >>>>> one windy night the entire thing was pulled up from its stakes and > >>>>> blown > >>>>> into a tree, where it twisted and broke. The plastic was ripped, and > >>>>> the metal bars were bent and sheared clean off at some places. (A few > >>>>> of the stakes were still in the ground; the wind had separated the > >>>>> poles > >>>>> at the joints and lifted them away!) If you do not have a lot of wind > >>>>> where you live, this shouldn't be a problem. > >>>>> > >>>>> I really like the idea of these inexpensive greenhouses, but for me it > >>>>> was a waste of money. > >>>>> --S. > >>>> Thanks for your feedback. Both of those things are issues, I wondered > >>>> how > >>>> something that was basically a tent could stand up to any kind of wind, > >>>> apparently they can't. > >>> Maybe nestled up to a south facing wall with east and west protected > >>> with a few cider blocks. > >> > >> I like that idea. > >> > >> You may wish to look at home made hoop greenhouses. Easiest way is to > >> drive rebar into the ground, and pop the hoops on the exposed rebar. You > >> will need to recover every few years, but the material is cheap. > >> > >> One example: > >> > >> http://westsidegardener.com/howto/hoophouse.html > >> > >> My general advice, curves are strong and resist wind. If you can prop > >> this against a south facing wall you will cut your heating needs. > >> Greenhouses lose heat at night, and lots of it. Without added heat, > >> inside temperature will be the outside temp by morning if not long before. > > > > I'd investigate composting manure for heating. Not very esthetic, but > > practical.
Before I started to garden, I found the smell of manure very offensive.
Now when I smell manure, I think of gardening.
> > Perhaps perhaps run pex through the remotely located compost pile and > pump the heat into the greenhouse when needed. Lot's of options. > >> > >> As I understand it auto venting device is > >>> really of import or the heat which varies a lot due to no solar mass > >>> fries or freezes your plants. I's add gallons of water maybe half your > >>> space to try to moderate the temperature swings. > >> > >> Water is one BTU per pound water degree F. Heat loss for single layer is > >> ~ 1 BTU/hr per square foot times the temperature difference. It adds up > >> to a lot of water as Bill has said. Try Drums. Other materials store > >> heat, but not as well as water. > >> > >> Double or triple wall polycarbonate will cut the heat loss by almost a > >> half to two thirds. > > and reduce light by 20% - 30%, respectivly. Six mil polyvinyl will > > reduce light by 5 - 15%. In low light situations, this could be > > important. I was planing on a hoop house, but decided that I couldn't > > afford the light loss in my particular situation. > > It's always a tradeoff. You could have removable insulation and put it > in at night. But that can be a hassle. I've done some removable with > reflective bubble wrap such as this: > > http://www.radiantguard.com/reflective-insulation.aspx > > I also have this on the north wall and it reflects light in rather > than letting it escapes. It can also be pulled over the top, instead > of inside. > > I've got some folding multilayer 1 mil mylar "storms" that has very > low light loss, but it has it's issues. > > My benefit here is that while I have very little sun during the > summer, falling leaves changes all that. I may have to become a winter > gardener... > > At any rate, there is a lot to consider. And I'm afraid more that the > casual greenhouse user would like to consider! > > As you have said, anyone can grow in ideal conditions, it takes a > gardener to grow in what is available! > > Jeff > > >> I'll retrofit my solar cabana with mylar storms this fall. Clear > >> mylar degrades in UV so it needs a UV outer barrier. > >> > >> I've been using vinyl shower curtain liners. They are very clear and > >> hold up well, so far. > >> > >> Jeff > >> > >> Small maybe beautiful > >>> but one has to work harder on your design. > >>>
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
Posted by Bill who putters on June 20, 2010, 3:05 pm
In article
> > > Billy wrote: > > > > > >> Bill who putters wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:36:25 -0700, Suzanne D. wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>> I'm thinking about getting a greenhouse this year to extend my > > >>>>>> season > > >>>>>> (I live in Massachusetts). Last fall someone on this group suggested > > >>>>>> I > > >>>>>> try a popup greenhouse because they are very cheap (under $150, some > > >>>>>> as > > >>>>>> low as $50), rather then make any kind of major investment. Does any > > >>>>>> one have any experience with them? > > >>>>> I bought a $110 plastic greenhouse from Walmart. It was easy to > > >>>>> assemble. The workmanship was a little shoddy, but nothing > > >>>>> drastic--just > > >>>>> a zipper off-kilter, some crooked seams, that sort of thing. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> There were two problems I saw, and these might not be problems for > > >>>>> you: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 1. It didn't stay warm at night. I'd see seedlings popping up during > > >>>>> the day (when it was VERY hot inside the greenhouse), then they'd die > > >>>>> overnight. If you are going to put some nighttime heating in it, then > > >>>>> this probably wouldn't be an issue for you. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 2. The wind completely took it away. We staked it down all around > > >>>>> AND > > >>>>> put concrete cinderblocks around the perimeter of the greenhouse, but > > >>>>> on > > >>>>> one windy night the entire thing was pulled up from its stakes and > > >>>>> blown > > >>>>> into a tree, where it twisted and broke. The plastic was ripped, and > > >>>>> the metal bars were bent and sheared clean off at some places. (A > > >>>>> few > > >>>>> of the stakes were still in the ground; the wind had separated the > > >>>>> poles > > >>>>> at the joints and lifted them away!) If you do not have a lot of > > >>>>> wind > > >>>>> where you live, this shouldn't be a problem. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I really like the idea of these inexpensive greenhouses, but for me > > >>>>> it > > >>>>> was a waste of money. > > >>>>> --S. > > >>>> Thanks for your feedback. Both of those things are issues, I wondered > > >>>> how > > >>>> something that was basically a tent could stand up to any kind of > > >>>> wind, > > >>>> apparently they can't. > > >>> Maybe nestled up to a south facing wall with east and west protected > > >>> with a few cider blocks. > > >> > > >> I like that idea. > > >> > > >> You may wish to look at home made hoop greenhouses. Easiest way is to > > >> drive rebar into the ground, and pop the hoops on the exposed rebar. You > > >> will need to recover every few years, but the material is cheap. > > >> > > >> One example: > > >> > > >> http://westsidegardener.com/howto/hoophouse.html > > >> > > >> My general advice, curves are strong and resist wind. If you can prop > > >> this against a south facing wall you will cut your heating needs. > > >> Greenhouses lose heat at night, and lots of it. Without added heat, > > >> inside temperature will be the outside temp by morning if not long > > >> before. > > > > > > I'd investigate composting manure for heating. Not very esthetic, but > > > practical. > > Before I started to garden, I found the smell of manure very offensive. > Now when I smell manure, I think of gardening. > > > > Perhaps perhaps run pex through the remotely located compost pile and > > pump the heat into the greenhouse when needed. Lot's of options. > > >> > > >> As I understand it auto venting device is > > >>> really of import or the heat which varies a lot due to no solar mass > > >>> fries or freezes your plants. I's add gallons of water maybe half your > > >>> space to try to moderate the temperature swings. > > >> > > >> Water is one BTU per pound water degree F. Heat loss for single layer is > > >> ~ 1 BTU/hr per square foot times the temperature difference. It adds up > > >> to a lot of water as Bill has said. Try Drums. Other materials store > > >> heat, but not as well as water. > > >> > > >> Double or triple wall polycarbonate will cut the heat loss by almost a > > >> half to two thirds. > > > and reduce light by 20% - 30%, respectivly. Six mil polyvinyl will > > > reduce light by 5 - 15%. In low light situations, this could be > > > important. I was planing on a hoop house, but decided that I couldn't > > > afford the light loss in my particular situation. > > > > It's always a tradeoff. You could have removable insulation and put it > > in at night. But that can be a hassle. I've done some removable with > > reflective bubble wrap such as this: > > > > http://www.radiantguard.com/reflective-insulation.aspx > > > > I also have this on the north wall and it reflects light in rather > > than letting it escapes. It can also be pulled over the top, instead > > of inside. > > > > I've got some folding multilayer 1 mil mylar "storms" that has very > > low light loss, but it has it's issues. > > > > My benefit here is that while I have very little sun during the > > summer, falling leaves changes all that. I may have to become a winter > > gardener... > > > > At any rate, there is a lot to consider. And I'm afraid more that the > > casual greenhouse user would like to consider! > > > > As you have said, anyone can grow in ideal conditions, it takes a > > gardener to grow in what is available! > > > > Jeff > > > > >> I'll retrofit my solar cabana with mylar storms this fall. Clear > > >> mylar degrades in UV so it needs a UV outer barrier. > > >> > > >> I've been using vinyl shower curtain liners. They are very clear and > > >> hold up well, so far. > > >> > > >> Jeff > > >> > > >> Small maybe beautiful > > >>> but one has to work harder on your design. > > >>>
Happy Fathers Day !
Sometimes wonder why we did it in hindsight glad I did. Sometimes I
think what is next. Ups and downs and all around as I listen to
Lir 18:10 Wim Mertens Close Cover New Age AAC audio file 100 1
8/2/09 6:03 PM 1986
--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?
http://ocg6.marine.usf.edu/~liu/Drifters/latest_roms.htm
Posted by The Cook on March 7, 2010, 2:51 pm
On 7 Mar 2010 18:58:13 GMT, General Schvantzkoph
>I'm thinking about getting a greenhouse this year to extend my season (I >live in Massachusetts). Last fall someone on this group suggested I try a >popup greenhouse because they are very cheap (under $150, some as low as >$50), rather then make any kind of major investment. Does any one have >any experience with them? There also seems to be a class of greenhouses >that are a step up, around $600-$700. The cheap ones are basically >plastic tents, the mid priced ones are aluminum and polycarbonate. I'd >like your opinions on both types. In my heart of hearts I've always >wanted a proper glass Victorian greenhouse, but that's real money so I >want to see if a greenhouse is helpful to me before I make that kind of >investment.
I bought a 12.5' x 8' greenhouse from Costco about 5 years ago. I
love it, but even here in NC you can't do much to extend the season
with heat at night. http://tinyurl.com/yfkudkx It was somewhat
cheaper when I bought it. It was on sale and we were up at midnight
to get online and order it. The price includes shipping.
The interior gets down to whatever the outside temps are at night. As
soon as the sun comes up it starts getting hot. With the door closed
and a nice bright day it will be 105° inside. We ran water and
electric when we poured the slab. This one comes with lights, fans,
shelves and other stuff. I have discovered that it is cheaper to
germinate seeds in the house and then move them out to greenhouse than
to try to keep the GH warm enough at night for germination.
As I mentioned in another thread, I am getting a late start this year.
Besides we had snow the beginning of this week. Tomorrow it is
supposed 61°.
Think carefully and specifically what you hope to accomplish with a
greenhouse and how much you would like to have in it. About April one
of my 8' shelves is packed with trays in various stages before setting
out. If I got very ambitious I could clear the shelf on the other
side. The cost of heat can be a real bear. I did not heat the
greenhouse this winter and it was so cold that our electric bill was
double what it was last year. I will be putting some trays out there
in a few more days so I will have room to start some more things.
Ask more questions as you think more about what you want.
XML site map
> >
> >> On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 12:36:25 -0700, Suzanne D. wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I'm thinking about getting a greenhouse this year to extend my season
> >>>> (I live in Massachusetts). Last fall someone on this group suggested I
> >>>> try a popup greenhouse because they are very cheap (under $150, some as
> >>>> low as $50), rather then make any kind of major investment. Does any
> >>>> one have any experience with them?
> >>>
> >>> I bought a $110 plastic greenhouse from Walmart. It was easy to
> >>> assemble. The workmanship was a little shoddy, but nothing drastic--just
> >>> a zipper off-kilter, some crooked seams, that sort of thing.
> >>>
> >>> There were two problems I saw, and these might not be problems for you:
> >>>
> >>> 1. It didn't stay warm at night. I'd see seedlings popping up during
> >>> the day (when it was VERY hot inside the greenhouse), then they'd die
> >>> overnight. If you are going to put some nighttime heating in it, then
> >>> this probably wouldn't be an issue for you.
> >>>
> >>> 2. The wind completely took it away. We staked it down all around AND
> >>> put concrete cinderblocks around the perimeter of the greenhouse, but on
> >>> one windy night the entire thing was pulled up from its stakes and blown
> >>> into a tree, where it twisted and broke. The plastic was ripped, and
> >>> the metal bars were bent and sheared clean off at some places. (A few
> >>> of the stakes were still in the ground; the wind had separated the poles
> >>> at the joints and lifted them away!) If you do not have a lot of wind
> >>> where you live, this shouldn't be a problem.
> >>>
> >>> I really like the idea of these inexpensive greenhouses, but for me it
> >>> was a waste of money.
> >>> --S.
> >> Thanks for your feedback. Both of those things are issues, I wondered how
> >> something that was basically a tent could stand up to any kind of wind,
> >> apparently they can't.
> >
> > Maybe nestled up to a south facing wall with east and west protected
> > with a few cider blocks.
>
>
> I like that idea.
>
> You may wish to look at home made hoop greenhouses. Easiest way is to
> drive rebar into the ground, and pop the hoops on the exposed rebar. You
> will need to recover every few years, but the material is cheap.
>
> One example:
>
> http://westsidegardener.com/howto/hoophouse.html
>
> My general advice, curves are strong and resist wind. If you can prop
> this against a south facing wall you will cut your heating needs.
> Greenhouses lose heat at night, and lots of it. Without added heat,
> inside temperature will be the outside temp by morning if not long before.